Just Asking: Should E-Mails be allowed in as evidence in the County vs. Coach K?(Northern Guilford)

Posted by Andy Durham on May 15, 2009 at 3:20 pm under High School | 32 Comments to Read

This case is really starting to get personal with the E-mails that showed last night on FOX8 and in today’s News and Record.

This investigation has gone from being messy, to now it’s getting down-right dirty, with all the different groups trying to drag each other deeper and deeper into the mud.

Where will all of this end on a rainy Friday, and wasn’t it back on Friday April 10 when all of this broke on the local TV News and in the papers/on-line??????

There must be something about Friday……

Remember we are just a blog and not considered a legitimate news source although the TV outlets are acting like all of this sports/athletics talk in relatation to Northern Guilford High School just got started back on Wednesday of this week. What’s up with that?

Here’s that link to the N&R article that also was in today’s News and Record.(The Friday Edition)

Click Here:


  • NO NEED said,

    No it should not. All of this type of evidence or details should not be played out here. It does not matter but worse it will not be long before names of students will be flying all over the web. In addition it does not matter what a coach here or there thinks or knows and certainly the names should not be released. It just makes it that much worse. Many of these peoples paths will cross again on the court or other places.

  • ziggy said,

    If I were a coach, I’d get a gmail or yahoo account to converse.

    As public school employees, their school accounts are accessible as they are public record.

  • NG Fan said,

    If I were Kent, Shoemaker, Hughes or any of the other idiots that bad-mouthed Coach K. they better get a good attorney as the N&R just made Coach K’s day. Shows you that the whiners and jealous coaches will be brought out in public too.

  • Big Mac said,

    Andy,

    It’s time for Northern Guilford (& all of Guilford County for that matter) to heal. Please don’t reopen a chapter which has been closed by continuing to start new threads on your blog.

    Move on to something positive which sets a good example for our youth.

  • DAD said,

    I don’t agree Big Mac.

    While I think that it is time to help the kids start healing, I think we need to keep this in the spotlight a little longer for the parents and coaches to remember. If we don’t it will be forgotten too quickly and we will be right back in the same boat again in a year or so………this has to be an example to ALL Guilford County Schools….it’s been happening for years to a lesser degree and the guilty ones at Northern just pushed the envelope too far and left too many loose ends and got themselves caught. They are now going to be used as an example. I hate if for the kids that got caught up in it, but for the sake of all the kids coming up through the Guilford County System now….We cannot forget this and let it get dropped to page 6 so quickly.

    and yes, emails should be allowed as evidence especially if sent through the Guilford County School Systems email server…there is no expectation of privacy there.

  • Don said,

    Basic Computer Knowledge – your use of company (or school) computers does NOT give you any privacy. If you email the City Council, you can bet John Hammer has a copy.

    Any person who conducts personal business on company computers has NO rights under the privacy laws. Using Gmail or Yahoo is not enough – network traffic can be captured.

    You want to conduct private conversations – do it in person. Everything else is subject to being copied, intercepted, wire-tapped or otherwise recorded.

  • NO NEED said,

    This is not about what is legal or not. Any form of email, text, or even cell calls could be made public if the right person has the technology. Our government could capture any transmission any of us make and it could be made public. The question here is WHY??? Why do we, us, or you need to know about what someone said last year about this issue. It does not matter what a coach at one school said about the coach at another school. How does this fix anything does this make it better?? Let this go and let GCS implement new rules about transfers and requirements about proof of residence. Do not drag what he said or she said or they said through the web and make this any worse than it already is. The entire county needs to start healing.
    It is true that these types of communications can be published. Privacy is not the issue it is what is right what is best for the entire community.

  • Academics over Sports said,

    Maybe I’ve got this all wrong, but can someone answer this question? Why do parents sign a petition backing a coach who the N&R reports is urging student-athletes to leave their community schools and possibly sue the very school system that could possibly take money out of the funds that teach their children? I would hate to have my name on that petition. The school has got real talent in academics. The coach is dust in the wind compared to the influence that the teachers have on the children. There are many more scholarships for academics than for sports. The vast majority of high school student-athletes will never make a penny on sports, but they can make huge contributions to society through knowledge learned in the classroom. Any way we can see a public list of the names of the people who signed that petition and a video of the actions of parents in some of the meetings? Andy, how about it?

    “It is a golden rule not to judge men by their opinions but rather by what their opinions make of them.”- Georg Christophe Lichtenberg

  • suzy said,

    Hi, Academics,
    I’ll try to answer your question . . .
    Parents are signing that petition because they think that Stan is a great coach and their children love him. They are still waiting for evidence, not rumors, that he has done anything wrong. Stan and his wife good people and many people who know them believe that.

    Most coaches have far more influence over students than their teacher. That may or may not be a good thing, but it is true.

    As a believer in academics myself, I happen to think a coach who used his sports to obtain an Ivy League degree and go on to be successful is a ggod example. There aren’t enough people with those credentials in the public schools.

    Many scholarships, e.g. the Morehead at Carolina, require participation in sports even though they are primarily based on academics.

    Sports can teach these the kids many life skills, team work, determination, time management.

  • Suzy said,

    To answer your question Andy, as a teacher, I don’ t think e- mail should be public record. I am send list of Ec students with their modifications, have converstions with parents about grades, behavior. Etc. As a parent, I don’t think that should be public. It. Is , however, and therefore should be used as evidence. My problem with the paper is that I did’ t see anything in those e- mails that was news. Everybody following this knows that John Hughes is convinced Stan is recruting and that coaches are upset their kids are transfering . Until an e-mail gives evidence of something we don’t know, I think your point is well taken- of is just adding more fuel to the fire.
    Just my opinion.

  • wheres my purple coat? said,

    let those true colors shine on through big fella

  • Academics Over Sports said,

    ‘Suzy’,
    I went back and read the posts associated with “Suzy”. You must be very involved based on all the responses. May I ask what subject(s) you teach and where you teach? Do teachers actually have student’s cell phone numbers these days?

  • Suzy said,

    With all due respect, I do not wish to reveal personal information. And, yes, because I am occasionally supervising students off campus, I have their cell phone numbers and they have mine. There parents, of course, are totally aware of that. But again, despite spending much time with students on and off campus, I don’t know where they live.

  • Suzu said,

    Their . . Proofreading is a good skill too, isn’t it? 🙂

  • Suzy said,

    Ok. My last comment- neither I nor any member of my family is personally involved in this in any way. I do, however, know many, many of the people involved. I do believe that the adults ivolved are good people who care about kids. It bothers me tremendously how the adminstration that I work for has treated these men and has handled the situation.
    I would like to think that I have a right to blog and express my opinion without it coming back to me at work. Thanks

  • Academics Over Sports said,

    “Suzy”,
    Thank you for your opinion. Emotions run high when one is in the middle of a heated discussion. Sometimes it is best to take a step back and evaluate the goal that one is trying to accomplish. Teaching is one of the most important jobs in the community. Sports can help students in many ways, but in the end, it is academics that help improve the world in which we live. Sports are small in comparison to academics. Thank you for all you do for the students in the community as a teacher.

  • Suzy said,

    Hello Suzy Q,

    From reading your various comments, it’s obvious that you are passionate and sincere about this situation.

    However, you are not being objective. You’re only looking at one side of the issue due to your personal connections.

    It’s obvious that rules were broken & the punishment was just. It’s sad that most of the NG community can’t accept this! (Yes, if other schools are guilty, they need to be punished too!)

    Sports are important and coaches are influential. However, if parents are doing a proper job, they will be their kids’ role model (and not some big, rich, Ivy league educated basketball coach).

    Please be objective and advise your NG friends to learn from this mistake & not repeat it! (and not divert attention to other people & other schools!)

  • Jimmy the Turk said,

    HEY NG FAN,

    Learn the law. The coaches who sent email did not do it publicly. You cannot be sued for a private conversation. It is a joke that you think they can be sued for what the “News and Record” made public. Some of you NG people are a little crazy I am starting to see and I qoute the word “some” as to not make a general statement.

  • suzy said,

    Suzy,
    You may be right about being objective, but we all see things through our own personal lens. I will readily concede that is if all I knew was what I read in the paper and on the web, I would think that Stan was a liar, cheat and a terrible person, and that Joe and Derrell were totally incompetent. SInce I know them, I know that is not true – not even close.
    In the case of Stan, I was just trying to provide an answer to the question that was posed. I knew Stan would not be re-hired (as did most people) because the school system does not have any obligation to him at all. He does not have a case. Given the fact that there is no proof of recruiting, I would have felt better about it if GCS had said, AAU and high school sports don’t mix . . .too many AAU players follow their coaches, we are banning aau coaches from coaching high school. I do not agree with your assertion that because Stan is “big, rich and Ivy League educated” that he is bad for kids. (in fact, is that an objective statement?)
    My passion comes from the way Joe and Derrell were treated. Even if they were guilty, I totally disagree with the interrogation tactics used by central office (Stan is completely correct in his comments about that). I am curious if the others schools do not want to be subjected to the same scrutiny because they know the untenable position that the ADs are put in. I would LOVE to hear from other Ads out there. It seems to me that, first of all, they shouldn’t have to teach (ok, maybe one class of pe). Second, as it is now, teaching, doing the games, and keeping up with physicals and grade for all athetes . .. . . isn’t that enough.? Couldn’t we have another system of physically checking where these kids live? (where are the people who grant the transfers?) My guess is that the people saying that is easy to do aren’t the ones having to do it. As a teacher, you have to be really careful when you start accusing parents of lying. I imagine that it is the same for principal and Ads . What am I missing?

  • NE Rams Club '78 said,

    Why are we beating this issue into the ground; it’s a dead horse………..er, I mean Nighthawk. Northern, face it you aren’t getting the stupid state title back and Stan won’t be back to coach so SHUT UP with all of the crying on tv and having the basketball team baking ccookies like a bunch of chumps and just MOBVE ON!!! Lessons to be learned:

    1. Don’t hire a Dartmouth grad to coach your basketball team.
    2. Always show respect for your fellow coaching peers.
    3. NEVER EVER dsicuss sensitive matters via email or leave a paper trail
    4. ALways hire “the right people” to manage thy attendance office.

  • joe said,

    Those coaches don’t have to worry about a law suit NG. Instead they should be praised. Plus, people on the NG staff turned K and others in to the County. Same thing happened at Central. After reading K’s comments I can’t believe some people follow this guy. It’s like a Jim Jones cult thing. Sad what he is teaching those kids.

  • sadsituation said,

    Has anybody in support of Coach K asked themselves why a person genuinely concerned for the students would encourage them to leave guilford County school. If you have enough influence on kids/parents to have them leave a school doesn’t that prove you have enough influence to have them come to a school. What he is doing through this series of interviews is proving that he does recruit — because he’s recruiting them out of GCS. I agree it’s like a cult because at some point you would think people would just admit he was wrong and move on. That does not mean that they have to stop supporting or liking him but just accept the verdict.
    Suzy, you are a bit extreme and I do not believe that you are an impartial teacher just making comments because of your sense of injustice. You are obviously very intelligent but seem blinded by emotion. I didn’t see a petition for Yeager, Force or Lawson. If its about academics then why not fight for the principal.
    That is what is wrong with our society we are constantly teaching our kids that they are not responsible for their actions. If you drink to much at the bar sue the bar, if I choose to smoke sue the tobacco company, if an athletic director tells the truth on me then sue him, etc. etc.,. He did it !!! Now be quiet, go away and accept your punishment. Help the kids learn the importance of doing the right thing and how bad choices have bad outcomes. Remember they are the true victims

  • suzy said,

    Maybe you didn’t read my last post carefully. My passion about this comes from the way the principal, the AD, and, yes, Lawson were treated. There should be a petition for them!!!!!!!!!!!!!! More so than for Stan.

    They took away Lawson’s job in this economy because his kid plays basketball??? So you concede that the janitor should not have been hired, did they really need to fire him?

  • according to Rhino Times said,

    According to the Rhino Times article a couple issues ago, Lawson and Kowalewski’s lawyer said Lawson was fired for allegedly making intimidating and/or threatening remarks about or toward those “snitching” on the basketball program. The lawyer basically admitted that Lawson said something about the fact that if people are snitching, Lawson things that is wrong but that Lawson did not try and intimidating anyone. My question is this: Lawson’s lawyer said Lawson did not intimidate or make threats, but the admission by Lawson’s lawyer of what he claims Lawson said shows that there was indeed something to snitch about does it not? It was an interesting article and much more revealing than anything in the News and Record.

  • If you knew said,

    Staff meeting at NG.. Pricipal saying that NG would be the best in every category. No student will make below a C. And give the parents what they want. Maybe some insight to why people lost their jobs

  • sadsituation said,

    In response to should Lawson have been fired? My response is if it started off with a wrong intent — which was to hire him because his son plays basketball and we want his son to play for us. Then the answer is yes he should have been fired. Highschool does not offer financial compensation to kids in order for them to play sports. I don’t know but for some reason I don’t believe he would have been on staff if his son was not such an excellent player. My word is not gospel and I’m only speculating but there is a reason he was asked to resign initially. I’m assuming GCS has no personal vendetta against anyone on staff at NG. There is truth to an old saying “a wrong never makes a right”. There is a reason they were all asked to resign and I don’t think it is because of careless oversights.

  • suzy said,

    The saying is “two wrongs don’t make a right” – meaning that just because it was wrong to hire him, firing him does not make it right. His son was not paid to play basketball; he was paid to clean the school, which he did.
    I know enough about Yeaager’s “different” educational theories and never agreed with them. Anyone who ever interviewed with him or worked for him. And yes, I realize that complaints and academics were a factor. I still say a public hanging making it look like it was all about athletics is wrong. The way they were treated was wrong. It could have been handled differently.
    I don’t think the superintendent had a vendetta against Northern. I do think he wanted to use them to make a point. I do think he (or Wilson) threatened these men with things that had nothing to do withathletics and the end weren’t true. I do think he thought that once he got Yeager and Force out of the way he would find more than he did and was wrong. I do believe that Derrell was caught in the middle and ultimately fired for careless oversights (and he is the one who paid the biggest price – helost his full retirement – Stan is obviously fine and Yeager had already retired)
    I have been told to go away once, and don’t want to be told again, so I will just listen from now on. But at least consider the possiblity that you shouldn’t assume anything. I’ll give him one thing, Mo made his point. it will be interesting to see where he goes from here.
    Bye

  • Richard Cranium said,

    To If you knew. I posted on here early on in this that I had heard from a former NG teacher that Yeager told the staff in a meeting that no one gets below a C and to give the parents what they want. I wish you had been posting then and confirmed that then. I do appreciate you doing it now.

  • Basketball FAn said,

    I feel parents/supporters should not just “move on”. Just because a decision was made does not make it right. If they feel it was not right, they should fight it. I know I would want my child to fight for something they believe in or feel wrongly accused. If our children do not stand for something, they will fall for anything. It is not about “crying”, “pouting”, because it is obvious that everyone else was doing that against Northern. It’s about not standing up and not allowing something “just because”. It was said during the meeting with Green, if it took the County MONTHS just to find 5 ineligible players, how long do you think it would have taken the AD, who teaches and have other responsibilities?

    I believe emails should be allowed. And I am glad some were brought to light. It shows that if you complain/gossip to each other enough it will get back to Mo Green and he will see that something is done, as if it is truth.

    I am advocate of fairness. This was not displayed during the investigation. I say fight it til the wheels fall off.

  • dweeb said,

    Basketball FAn…What was not fair about the process?

    Should GCS have called ahead of time and let Northern know that they were about to be investigated? Would that have been the fair thing to do in your mind?

    GCS met with the appropriate school adminstrators to discuss their preliminary findings. Was that not the fair thing to do?

    I agree that under the current conditions it would be hard for the pricipal or the AD at any school to research the legal domicile for all of their athletes. That still doesn’t take away the fact that infractions were found by the GCS. Being guilty of those infractions brings penalties. Is that not fair?

    How would you feel if the shoe were on the other foot. What if Northern had been beaten during the playoffs by a team with ineligible players? Would that have been fair?

    It seems that you’re defining fairness as allowing Northern to escape punishment for the bad judgement of their players or parents or coaches or adminsitrators. Would that really be fair? Overlooking the fact that rules were broken by Northern would certainly not be fair to the schools that DO play by the GCS guidelines.

  • Basketball FAn said,

    Was it fair to have students learn about this during exam time? was it fair to have the students be told of such harsh reprimands without a parent present? was it fair for the students to be ignored after the resignation? was it fair for the parents to be left in the dark about what was going on at the school after the resgination? was it fair that another school who was found to have an ineligible player be allowed to keep their winnings and not pay a fine? The answer is no to all the above. And I could go on. So please dont put words in my mouth about what i am defining. Those students who were found ineligible did not provide false addresses. they lived in the northern district. But you have that fine line about “domicile”. So please spare me the “facts” line, all of them were not provided. I stand by original statement about fairness.

  • dweeb said,

    Basketball FAn…While I agree that things should have been handled much differently by GCS after the investigation it’s obvious that, in your opinion, nothing was fair about any of this…before, during or after the investigation. So, should we think that GCS fabricated all of this just to get rid of Stan and nothing more?

    And, if you’re privey to certain “facts” that weren’t provided why don’t you share them with us? I’m sure all of the readers and posters here would like to see something that would justify all the Northern Nation’s claims of an “unfair” investigation.