Confessions from a man that says, “I am growing more and more disturbed over the academic side of the UNC scandal”

Posted by Andy Durham on October 24, 2010 at 4:24 pm under College | 49 Comments to Read

Poster says:

I’ve never been a Carolina hater, but with all the news about Burney’s business getting buried and burned by the books……

from and this reader/writer has a serious problem with players failing and then being given a second, third and fourth chance and he really gets burned when they go out and create a class for the students after they fail the first time around and they are trying to find a way just to stay eligible…..

Very enlightening read…..

I am growing more and more disturbed over the academic side of the UNC scandal and
specifically to the university’s response to it.

Look, I’m not a Tar Heel basher and when this case exploded in August, I told
everybody who would listen that while while rules seemed to have been broken, I
trusted the University to respond in an ethical manner.

Now, I’m not too sure.

As bad as a agent stuff is, a lot of that is beyond UNC’s control (I’m talking about
the university administration, not the coaching staff). I do think that Butch should
be held accountable for hiring a known cheater (John Blake) and then not monitoring
him. It’s all about people — you bring in a Ken Browning and he cheats and you can
act surprised. You bring in a John Blake — nicknamed “Black Santa” on the
recruiting trail — and he cheats and you don’t get to claim shock. And the Sgt
Schultz act (“I know nothing … NOTHING!”) with Austin and his pals — when
Austin’s tweets and Facebook posts are all over the web so that even fans are
commenting about it was ridiculous. Plus, Butch has still refused to explained how
he allowed an agent and an alledged drug dealer (Chris Hawkins) inside access to his
program and facilities.

Still, that’s on Butch and his football program … as far as I can see, the
university response when the NCAA came calling was appropriate there.

It’s only when the academic problems start to emerge that I have problems. Okay, I
can understand a tutor who overstepped her job. And I don’t even see where the fact
that she worked for Butch as that much of a red flag (even though he was much more
than a tutor for his son — she was closer to a nanny as Joe Schad first reported.
She took care of him and drive him around in the family car).

Small red flag that she continued to work for Butch for five months after she was
dismissed as a tutor for the UNC program for being too close to the players. Could
Butch, who was famous at Miami and Cleveland for having his fingers in every small
part of the program, not have known?

Still, that’s on Butch and the football staff. It’s the next thing that gives me

The nanny/tudor was dismissed as a tutor for being too close to the players. Okay,
at that point, you know you have a potential problem … did anybody investigate to
see if irregularities had occurred? It would see that if you had cause to dismiss
her, you’d at least check to make sure she hadn’t done anything wrong to that point.

Apparently no such check was made … or if it was, it was so cursoury that nothing
was found.

That was my first big red flag.

But it gets worse.

There were players who were found to have cheated. How was that handled?

Well, at Duke or NC State or any other repudable university, a first-offense
cheating conviction is almost always a suspension — at Duke it was two semesters
for Zack Asack, Ricky Price, Greg Newton of recent memory.

UNC’s own honor court guidelines specify that a “normal” penalty for cheating is an
F in the course and a one-semester suspension. However, the rules do allow of a
minimum penalty — an F in the course and a one semester probation. I actually have
a small bit of confusion about the last part, because I was told that under
probation, you could stay in school, but not represent the university (as on the
football team). Apparently, that’s not true and a probation is merely a slap on the

Well, flash forward to the case of Kendric Burney. He served a six-game NCAA
suspension for receiving improper benefits. That ended with the Virginia game last
Saturday. He was supposed to be eligible for this week’s game with Miami.

But Burney was also involved in the cheating scandal. Monday night, he appeared
before the UNC honor court, plead guilty to cheating and was given, not the normal
punishment, but the minimum punishment — an F in the course he cheated in and a
one-semester probation … which apparently was going to allow him to play at Miami.

But there was a complication. Burney is a fifth-year senior who was only enrolled in
one three-hour course this fall. That’s legal under an NCAA loophole who allows
athletes in that situation to take less than the required load AS LONG AS THAT’S ALL
THEY NEED FOR GRADUATION. USC’s Matt Leinhart famously ended his career with one
course in ballroom dancing.

The problem for Burney was that when the F for the course he cheated in last year
was factored in, he was no longer one course from graduation — and his three hours
of coursework is not enough for eligibility under NCAA standards.

UNC’s response was to find him a new course that he could enroll in this week — 10
weeks into the semester — weeks after the official last day for adding courses at
UNC (Aug. 31). Burney promptly told a reporter for his hometown paper that he was
back …and a reporter for the Daily Tar Heel leaked the story of the dirty deal to
make him eligible. As the story leaked, the professor who had agreed to enroll
Burney late backed off and suddenly the kid was in limbo (“his case is complicated,”
Butch told reporters). Apparently, UNC has appealed to the NCAA to give Burney a
waiver to make him eligible with just three-hours of course work this semester.

This whole episode and the university’s twisted efforts to get these cheaters back
on the field turns my stomach. At one point, a reporter for the student newspaper
was waiting in the building where the honor court meets, trying to get in interview
with a player after his session. He was ordered to leave the building — and
Chancellor Holden Thorpe actually called him to demand his departure from a public

UNC has not behaved with the integrity I had come to expect from them … they’ve
been as devious and as duplicious as UNLV in its prime (or Kentucky now). They’ve
waged a PR campaign that would make Baghdad Bob blush — it’s not an NCAA
investigation, it’s a “review”; players aren’t suspended, they’re being held out
until their status is cleared; players don’t finish their suspension, they’re
“cleared” (visit IC and see how many fans think these cheaters were unfairly held
out because the university was bending over backwards tro avoid doring anything
wrong — these poor kids were punished because the university is overcautious).

I’m shocked and disappointed that the Board of Trustees and the Board of Governors
have turned into cheerleaders for the football program and avoided asking the same
kind of tough questions and hard scrutiny that they displayed during the NC State
scandal 20 years ago. Erskine Bowles is a fan of the highest order — remember it
was his father that led the fundraising drive to build the Dean Dome.

Indeed, 20 years ago, the powers that be demanded an independent investigation of NC
State. Has any person in power demanded the same for what’s haping up as a far more
widespread case of academic corruption? Is a university that twists and maneuvers to
get a cheater like Burney — who cheated academically and cheated by taking huge
sums of illegal benefits — back on the field as soon as possible trustworthy enough
to investigate itself (just one clue … when the tutor scandal first broke UNC
began by handling it itself … two weeks later, the NCAA stepped in to monitor the
investigation, hmmm)?

I’ve never been a Carolina hater … a rival, yes, but until now I always respected
UNC as a worthy rival that — like Duke — basically does things the right way.

My perception is changing. Unless something changes drastically in this case, UNC is
taking its place in my mind among the academic scumbags of college sports.

  • Head Shaker said,

    Why print some anonymous opinion, unless you are just showing your colors as well? Everyone wants to offer there opinion of how the evil empire in Chapel Hill is handling all of this, yet no one knows the facts at this point, other than UNC and the NCAA.

  • mark said,

    Seriously Andy? Enlightening read about the UNC situation from a dook fan?

  • Burney said,

    It’s not pretty Mark. May not like it but that guy has his facts. The whole Burney thing is very embarrasing for uNC.

  • El Gordo Gringo said,

    I find it hard to beleive that a glorified blogger can put the pieces together, but the “reputable” media in NC can’t seem to figure it out. Come’on News&Record, do this for the integrity of your university.

  • Institutional Control said,

    If I had a child attend UNC that got caught cheating and was suspended for a semester, I would find out real soon how good all of those University lawyers are.
    There is now zero academic integrity there when it comes to football players and most likely other athletes as well.

  • Andy said,

    I not trying to show any true colors….Just looking to get out some of the news that is not hitting the mainstream media…..As all of this comes to light, it is obvious that the Univeristy of North Carolina has a real mess on their hands, and it won’t seem to go away.

    Thought they might pick up a win down at Miami on Saturday, but not to be and now they have to come back and deal with this Burney mess.

    Still in for a long year, in Chapel Hill…..Other institutions are not immune to these type of situations, but right now, this is the year of the RAM, and you are just going to have to deal with it…..This problem will not go away, quietly into the night…..

    YEAR OF THE RAM and it is time to get this mess cleared up, once and for all and to quit digging yourself a deeper hole……When will all of this craziness stop?

  • Yahoosports said,

    UNC doesn’t want it in the media. Take a look at who owns the newspapers. the old Daniels family and the like. And with the internet today, who is the “mainstream media”?

    The Burney situation is out there at multiple media outlets; some credible, some not. Everyone laughed at but so far they have been right. Even to the point that Blake’s lawyers had to retract their statements on wire transfers and loans to Blake. They knew early on lots of the benefits these kids received; watches, diamonds, trips, meals, one car that we know of. But no matter what media outlet you choose, it’s not a pretty picture.

  • blinders said,

    People, what does everyone not understand. How can any objective UNC fan say this is not serious. And this is all UNC has published so far. There is more coming. Get the blinders off.

    Letters from UNC ID those who helped athletes

    Full document: Names of agents released
    Ramsay, McAdoo out for Miami game
    Print this story
    E-mail Story
    Share By Ryan Craig

    Oct 23, 2010

    VIEW In correspondence from the University of North Carolina athletic department to the NCAA released Friday, athletic director Dick Baddour wrote to the NCAA compliance department Oct. 4 to detail what he called “minimal benefits” to student athletes.

    In the letters, Baddour identified Christopher Hawkins as the person who acted as “a prospective agent” and as “a financial adviser ” to student-athletes.

    Baddour wrote to Hawkins on the same day to ask him to disassociate himself from the athletics program for at least five years.

    Hawkins, who was a student-athlete at North Carolina earlier this decade, transferred from the university prior to his senior season and now lives in Durham.

    In his letter to the NCAA, Baddour said Hawkins would befriend student-athletes, gain their trust, and socialize with them.

    One athlete, Baddour wrote, viewed Hawkins as “a friend who has knowledge about the business and is helpful in giving him an assessment about various agencies.”

    Other athletes, Baddour said, acknowledged that Hawkins provided information about various agencies and was present at meetings the student-athletes had with financial advisers.

    One athlete said Hawkins asked him to “keep him in the loop with regard to his agent search.”

    Baddour also identified relationships between UNC football players and Michael Katz, the director of marketing and client services for Rosenhaus Sports, and Todd Stewart, who has ties to a financial advising firm.

    Katz provided a wristband to a pool party, while Stewart paid for hotel rooms used by players.

    Robert Quinn and Greg Little were declared permanently ineligible by the NCAA earlier this season for accepting improper benefits from agents.

    The NCAA said Quinn and Little received travel accommodations and jewelry, then lied about it to investigators in three separate interviews.

    Quinn, a defensive end widely regarded as a high first-round NFL draft pick, accepted two black diamond watches, a pair of matching earrings and travel accommodations to Miami for benefits worth $5,642. Little, a receiver who returned for his senior season, accepted diamond earrings, as well as travel accommodations for the Bahamas, Washington, D.C., and a pair of trips to Miami for benefits worth $4,952.

    Marvin Austin was dismissed from the program by North Carolina for a violation of team rules that included accepting improper benefits from agents before the school even submitted his case to the NCAA.

    Baddour said the decision to dismiss Austin — who has been suspended for violating team rules since Sept. 1 — came after the NCAA recently determined he had received between $10,000 and $13,000 in improper benefits.

    Throughout the correspondence, Baddour refers to the benefits received by the UNC athletes as “minimal.” None of the jewelry was accounted for in the documents released Friday.

    Deunta Williams and Kendric Burney were given a four and six-game suspension, respectively, by the NCAA for accepting improper benefits. Both players have already served their suspensions, though Burney has not returned to the field.

  • Not an ABC fan said,

    The last time I checked, Kendric Burney is still not playing football, and there are only five games left in the season. Carolina has handled the academic questions just like they would any other student, unlike most schools. Each player has been before the Honor Court. Some have been suspended for the entire season. No one received preferential treatment, including the timeliness of the process. They were put in the queue with other students accused of cheating, and not moved to the front of the line. For those found innocent, that process actually cost them games that they could have been playing in.
    The conspiracy theorists here, i.e. ABC fans, are the delusional ones. Carolina is handling all of this with integrity, impartiality, and concern. Unfortunately for those of you salivating over the demise of Carolina, you will be very disappointed in the end result.

  • Institutional Control said,

    Chris Hawkins also is friends with current UNC freshman basketball player Reggie Bullock. Let’s see how this plays out. There is blatent lack of institutional control all over the UNC athletics department.
    Reminder: Not an ABC fan—The NCAA hasn’t been on the UNC campus multiple times if only minor punishments will be handed out. A Southern Cal type of sanction will be in the future for UNC football and no I will not be disappointed.

  • rcristal said,

    It is difficult to take this piece seriously given that it is anonymous. Let’s all put our names out there and have an adult dialog. Some of what “he/she” has to say certainly makes some degree of sense but where are the sources, interviews, accountability from the author and from you?

  • Not an ABC Fan said,

    Chris Hawkins is from Kinston, the same very small hometown of Reggie Bullock. Of course they know each other.
    There are a whole lot of people around the country learning about the ways of agents through the Carolina mess. The idea of runners, especially the use of former players and students, to get close to current players is not anything that most schools are paying attention to, but they certainly are now. Was Carolina naive about Chris Hawkins? I have no idea, but they definitely did not know about relationships he might have. How would they, or any other school, know which of their former players might be associated with agents? Are you going to tell all of your former players not to come back to campus, live nearby, or hang around? I don’t think so. There aren’t a lot of schools where former players and students want to continue to be around. Chapel Hill happens to be an environment that keeps them coming back, and some of the programs even encourage that. The university has certainly had its eyes opened by all of the agent/improper benefits side of this.
    You keep bringing up Southern Cal, which shows you don’t know what you are talking about. How Carolina has handled all of this, compared to how Southern Cal stonewalled the NCAA, are light years apart. Southern Cal had player’s families getting houses and cars. Carolina has bent over backwards, even grabbed their ankles, to show complete cooperation with the NCAA. Southern Cal never came close to that, which is why it was a five year process there. Southern Cal didn’t even get the penalties most thought they would, even after their poor handling of the situation and blatant knowledge of misdeeds.
    No one at Carolina is saying that there were not issues. They are not hiding anything, in fact quite the contrary. In the end, the professionalism and air of cooperation they have had with the NCAA will benefit the final results. The NCAA cannot afford to hammer Carolina, when every other school is witnessing how cooperative they are. If Carolina gets the same penalties as a school like Southern Cal, which responded in the exact opposite manner, why would any school cooperate fully with the NCAA in the future? The NCAA is very cognizant of this.
    The NCAA has already told UNC how impressed they have been with the compliance area, the student/athlete support area, the handling of the cheaters through the tight Honor Court process, and the overall cooperation displayed by the University.
    We will, indeed, see what happens.

  • Institutional Control said,

    When did anyone from the NCAA praise UNC for its cooperation? Who was it? Marcus Wilson, perhaps. USC had one player involved. UNC has several.USC did not have a coach involved. Blake the associate head coach was involved with agent activity for both his players and those at other schools.
    The NCAA cannot afford NOT TO HAMMER UNC. Otherwise more schools would try to cheat to the degree that UNC has. If the NCAA desires to have any respect and clout after this than UNC must be hit hard.

  • Burney said,

    Not an ABC fan, Burney got the minimum for cheating. He was allowed to take an “F” in the class and go on probation (probabtion for a whole 6 weeks). You say he hasn’t gotten anything any other student would not get? How do you explain they were going to let him add a class 10 weeks after the drop/add date just to be eligioble to play football? You se any other kids adding classes in late October for a early Dec. completion date? He would be adding the class after the mid term for Christ’s sake. And the NCAA was not impressed with how UNC was handling which is why the NCAA jumped back in on the academic issues. But i would agree UNC has cooperated much more than USC.

  • Not an ABC Fan said,

    Institutional Control,
    My knowledge comes from someone involved in the process, not from a message board or the media. You can doubt what I say all you want to, but that has been the feedback from the NCAA team.
    USC did have an ass’t coach involved, which was one of their bigger problems. He knew about the Bush situation and was covering it up.
    Finding out that John Blake has had a relationship with an agent for many, many years at multiple schools has only helped UNC. Those schools didn’t know it, just like UNC didn’t.
    “Cheat to the degree that UNC has.” What on earth does that mean? How has UNC cheated?

  • Not an ABC Fan said,

    1. Do you have any knowledge of the details of the Burney case and what he did? No, you don’t. How could you pass judgement on a ruling in a private Honor Court situation, if you don’t know any details whatsoever?
    2. Do you have any knowledge of how any student is handled for cheating at UNC? Do you have knowledge of what the university does or does not allow for any student trying to correct their mistakes? No, you don’t.
    3. Do you have any knowledge of what is allowed, and under what timeframe, for Independent Study courses or online courses at UNC? No, you don’t.
    4. Are you aware that the NCAA trusted UNC’s integrity and process enough to allow them to do their own investigation of the players accused of cheating? Are you aware that the NCAA was planning to come back to Chapel Hill once that investigation was completed to review the findings and bless the procedures followed? They didn’t “jump back in.”
    5. I can tell you that the NCAA has indeed praised UNC for their handling of this entire problem.
    I realize that all of you want desperately to believe otherwise. Sorry.

  • Institutional Control said,

    If UNC is going to get very little sanction from the NCAA, why is the investigation still going on? IC has periodically reported that the whole thing was about over several times many weeks ago. They have yet to be correct.Yahoo Sports has released several correct stories that clearly point out UNC transgressions with agents, Coach Blake’s activities etc. How is it that Yahoo Sports a National Media Outlet can outscoop the News and Observer for information about a school only 30 miles away?
    I could understand that things were about normal at UNC if only Austin(or any other single player) for example was involved in either agent activity or academic cheating.
    When double digit players are involved with 2 prongs and an assistant coach(associate head coach) was an agent /runner then even us that may have graduated from one of the “lesser State Universities” than almighty Chapel Hill can see there are problems and lack of institutional control.
    You ask ” How has UNC cheated?”
    What a question. Do you think all of us that follow this scandal and post here that are not hole fans are idiots?

  • Institutional Control said,

    If UNC will get an INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION going from outside of their own employees and nothing new is found I will totally respect them.
    I do not think they have the guts to do so. I feel like they are afraid of what may be uncovered. It might even reveal facts about basketball that the NCAA would be interested in checking out.

  • Burney said,

    Not an ABC fan

    1) yes I do
    2) yes, plus they have a published policy. Public info.
    3) No. surely UNC is not going to let Burney take an “independent study” class just so he can play football. Surely they value teh degree more than that, but maybe not.
    4)NCAA discovered the cheating and let UNC investigate on their own. The NCAA has indeeed stepped back in. You can choose whatever words you want to make you feel better.
    5) Employees in their own AD Dept. say differently.

    Look, UNC will recover. It isn’t like when Sherman went through Atlanta. They may even be better for it long term. I cannot begin to speculate what punishment they will receive but you have to admit the situation is serious.

    BTW, I guess you know they have interviewed additional coaches as well as members of the baseball team a few weeks back. And I talked to one of those players that was interviewed. Let’s leave it at that.

  • Institutional Control said,

    Facts that not an ABC fan should know but apparently does not:
    1. On Taylor Zarzour’s radio show( Triangle area) TZ has spoken to both an NCAA employee and a UNC athletics person. BOTH EXPECT PROBATION,SANCTIONS AND SCHOLARSHIP LOSSES.
    2. It is know that players lied to NCAA people during interviews.
    3.Other schools turned evidence in to the NCAA about UNC.

    If you want to know how UNC cheated maybe Corey Miller from Tennessee can enlighten you.

    By the way my wife has both an undergrad and a graduate degree from UNC and she is highly irritated about the academic cheating part of this. She thinks Butch should be terminated.

  • Tim said,

    How many threads is it going to take to convince this so call forum that this is a witch hunt by mostly ncsu propaganda and their own PR spin with their little red paint.

    Talk about a substancial source Taylor Zarzour are you kidding me. No boby has a clue who this joke of a radio personality this is, only a few wolfpussers in the triangle and thats about it.

    Lets try this 1 more time for all the rational fan bases:

    WQAM Radio ESPN`s Kirk Herbstreit Interview 10/22/2010

    “I`ve been privy to a lot of inside information that I don`t think I`m really at liberty to speak about from talking to some folks at UNC , and I think when and Ncaa investigation is over and they have a chance to stand at a podium and tell their side of the story-(the real story), instead of speculation by a lot of the media and at this point a lot of the facts aren`tnecessarily out there-when people hear the facts, I`ll be shocked if Butch Davis loses his job. In fact, I think they`d be very smart to hold onto him and be thankful that he`s been an anchor during this very difficult time and hope as an athletic dept. and University they can learn from the mistakes and try to get better off the field.There are some things that, when you read, you`d thinks there`s a tutor with a line of players outside her door writing papers and that`s the furthest from the truth. When all this comes out, I think people will realize what the deal is. I think if they were to dismiss Butch, it`d be a huge mistake.”

    Kirk Herbstreit > Taylor Zarzour/Carlton Tudor/Ed Hardin/JP Gigglio/Your Wife / and yourself and you costantly hide behind your keyboard under this ridiculous name. Yourself and your sources are a complete joke and you will be exposed with your hidden agenda`s.

    And be the way, I am hearing some rumblings about aau / agent affiliation with a couple of your Basketball recruits. There was a reason why Coach k / Roy and several others never prusued this kid(s).

    Go get some red paint from Walmart and/or better yet you can barrow Sidney Lowe blazer Mr. Tomato can.

  • Institutional Control said,

    There is a poster on that goes by the name of Herbstrietsucks.That in itself speaks volumes.
    This guy(Herbie) is only giving out propaganda from the UNC football office.
    I could give a red rat’s tail whether tarhole fans believe me or not.Take this for what it is worth and if tarhole fans deem it worthless then so be it with their delusional selves.
    1.The NCAA has been in Chapel Hole numerous times.
    2. They are not on anyone’s campus that much if next to nothing is going on there.
    3. This is an NCAA 1st having an Associate Head Coach identified as either an agent or an agent runner by the NCAA.
    4. The NCAA has new leadership that seem to be hellbent on enforcement.( See Southern Cal).
    5.If this were only a minor problem, why are 6 UNC players ineligible for college football due to agent activity imposed by the NCAA?
    6.Why did the NCAA decide to later join UNC in the investigating of the academic cheating by student/athletes when at first UNC was allowed to do it on their own?

    An aside: My wife has both an undergrad and a graduate degree from UNC and she is very embarassed by all of this. She wants Butch gone and have the program start over and do things the right way.Most people that actually graduated from UNC dislike the school getting negative publicity due to athletics or whatever reason.These people that actually worked hard at their academics to earn their UNC degree do not want it cheapened by cheating athletes. They also do not want future legitimate students rejected from admission to UNC to make room for the Dwight Jones’ of the world that were rejected from being admitted to Clemson.Real UNC grads want to restore academic integrity to the school. Walmart fans could care less about UNC academics. Some of them have their entire self-worth tied up into whether or not UNC wins a football or basketball game. I have an opinion that is of ABC fans. I have no agenda. I am not going to change a Walmart tarhole fan’s opinion.The NCAA will do what they are going to do without my input. Whatever I know they know many more things about UNC than I do.Like I stated in another post UNC fans (Walmart variety) cannot handle the truth about their athletic program being in trouble with the NCAA.
    Every NCAA school IS NOT doing what UNC has been exposed of doing in the last 102 days.Tim–You are showing real walmart UNC fan class–Mr. Tomato can—who is your current 3rd gade teacher?

  • Tim said,

    IS – It is obviouus even from the untrained eye that the pack nation have an agenda. The media has ran its course and now unc is finallly getting the green light from the ncaa to respond to all this incompetent journalism, if you will, and I use that term losely.

    You guys are so busy trying convience yourselves of what your fingers are typing that you really have no idea the true picture.

    I will say this, Kirk Herbstriet has far more credibilty than any and every source you have including your Institutional control self, and has no personal agenda because he dosen`t need one like that inferiority/delusional fan base that calls themselves pack nation.

    You guys haven`t won anything in 3 decades, let me recant that Cheerleading(Just no sports program to cheer for) Tractor Pulling National Champs and Bass Fishing Runner up Champs. If you know so much about Institutional controls explain why the student fan base urinated all over each other at games in Carter Friendly Stadium. O` I can answer that, they thought they were in the parking lot because that is what it actually, is a glorified parking lot.

    Why do you pick and chose you topics to discuss because you put so much time what is happening @UNC that you don`t know whats happing in west raleigh do you.

    My 3rd gade(As you spelled it) teacher went to state maybe, thats why I`m still in that grade.

    Move on dude, your going to be very disapointed!

  • Institutional Control said,

    I am not disappointed. For the last 102 days guys like you have had to go on the defensive about your beloved holes. The mythical “Carolina Way” is now history forever. Hole fans cannot be condescending about their pristine Carolina Way again. When the NCAA hammer comes down that will be icing on the cake. ABC fans have already won. If the NCAA finds more dirt on UNC(such as basketball) then that is more icing. Remember who is being investigated. There are 11 ACC schools that do not have the NCAA on their campus. There are 14 UNC System athletic programs that do not have the NCAA on their campuses either. Bottom line: everyone is not cheating.
    Sorry about the typo I did mean 3rd grade.You should have learned 3rd grade or sooner that getting caught cheating has consequences. Apparently several UNC football players did not learn this either. Facts are in UNC had multiple NCAA violations. You need to accept it.

  • Pirate Mania said,

    Institutional Control – All I have heard is you pack pride boys bashing the boyz in baby blue can you explain to me this.

    Jake Vermiglio / JR Sweezy / Markus Kuhn / George Bryan all starters that got caught with pot amongst other things including Ephedrine injectables(Banned by the ncaa for being considered performance enhancers) at of all places College Inn that happens to be owned by the Wolpack Club and all were released or aquitted because a search warrant technicality and this happen to be JR Sweezy 2nd brush with the law this summer. He pleaded no contest to assaulting a 65 year old bus driver. Wow. What, did TOB give them a quater of the game as suspension. That is the marine discipline that the wolf packers rave about, I can see why can`t you.

    This is embarrassing in itself, that only a 5-7 program would condone this kind of activity. Let me try to put a ncstate twist on this real quick, 22 year old Alison Davis was also in the apartment when off duty Police officer smelt a strong odor of marijuana from within the confines. She was the one smoking the pot, she was using the injectables, she had the bong in her sock, she took the picture of the pot plant that ws on George Bryan cell phone. I get the picture and so do you you.

    You act as if you`ve got a bunch of choir boys over in ralergh and that is the farthest from the truth that I have ever heard.

    Have you guys found a replacement for Tom O`brien yet, you sure was ready to fire him a couple of weeks ago in greenville.

    Let see how the pack nation is on the defensive still they are so clean.

  • Institutional Control said,

    Since we are going to compare apples and oranges:
    Quan Sturdivant smoking marijauna during the Summer and the covered up sexual assaut weekend before last by the 2 freshmen DB’s.
    UNC football has lack of institutional control. deal with it.

  • Pirate Mania said,

    Institutional control – So thats the way you deal with being on the defensive.

    For starters pal I`m part of the Pirate nation that kicked your butt 2 weekends ago.

    Again be careful throwing rocks when you live in a glass house. Your school reputation certainly proceeds itself. If I were to buy into your propaganda spins I would think that your program was part of the Ivy League based on how you view unc and your wife`e degree. I would kick you out of my house if you constantly tried to worry about someone`s else problems.

    1 question? Have you found a new coach yet. Dick Sheridan is still available, I think.

  • Tim said,

    IS – Come out come out where ever you are.

    So when the shoes are on your feet you plead the 5th I guess.

    In todays soceity I guess its more acceptable to break the actual laws of our country in the ncaa eyes that have students not receive help from a tutor.

    Apparently this is you or your schools philosophy aswell as many others including Florida`s Urban Meyer that has had 29 kids arrested since he has taken over down there.

    The only difference he has 2 National Championships and you guys guys have 1 Papa Johns butt whipping to Rutgers that we beat @Rutger by 30.

    One more thing, we had 3 kids Puff Thomas / Adarios Bowman / Fred Sparkman all starters, that go kick of our team beacause 1half burned joint.

    You do the math institutional control since you are so good at investigating.

  • El Gordo Gringo said,

    Don’t forget Paige-Moss and his illegal antics, not to mention his punching the Miami player this weekend during UNC’s beatdown.

  • Wayne Ellington said,

    Stay away from Daddy’s house. That booster was an old friend. Remember, previous relationships are exempt from NCAA actions.

  • Institutional Control said,

    Interesting a Pirate defending a tarhole.
    I have never had any problems with Pirate Nation.
    I am just surprised that they are all not pleased with the current events in college football. I am not defensive. ECU had a great gameplan and did what was necessary to win vs NC State. ECU did not cheat to get recruits they just outplayed NC State that day. I am not a tarhole so therefore no excuses. ECU is unlike UNC in that they do have institutional control. The NCAA is not camped out in Greenville.

  • Tim said,

    IC – You are constantly dodging the questions, don`t turn this into we hate unc more than ezu because even your own disfunsctional over opinionated self inflated fan base will agree with that. That is the 1 thing both fan bases will agree on. You would rather lost to unc 12-18 times that to lost to them once. Yeah you have won the last 3 spin away but please answer thses questions.

    Does your school codone your students urinating in the stands?

    Does your adminstration condone 4 kids getting busted with Pot, Ephedrine, Paraphernalia and dose the ncaa turn a blind eye for kids that use performance enhancing drugs because they are irrelevant in the landscape of college football.

    Are you already looking for another coach?

    I will say this, you`ll better hope the Butch had knowledge of all this because if he stays you will continue to see kids(Recruits) listing unc with likes of Alabama, Florida, LSU`s of the college football world and so far the recruits aren`t drinking your red coolade.

    The pirate nation took their beating and went home knowing the better team won on that day and they also know a fraudulent program when they see one also.

  • El Gordo Gringo said,

    Why wouldn’t NC State fans want Butch to stay. Everytime they see him, they win.

    While I’m sure that State fans will not get their wish of the NCAA burning the Bell Tower and people singing the fight song over it’s ashes, UNC fans are probably not going to get the slap on the wrist they are bragging about. UNC grads are embarrassed, as they should be. Not for the improper benefits, but for the academic dishonesty. While it would be nice to think that the tutor fiasco and Butch’s personal payments to her are nothing more than coincidence, it really looks and is bad. This has Clem Haskins written all over it and the NCAA doesn’t necessarily need definitive prove to take action. The money trail will be the end of things. Bank on it.

  • Institutional Control said,

    Did you actually go to UNC?
    You sound like a Walmarter.
    I am sure no school condones urinating in the stands.
    I am sure no administration condones illegal drug use.
    I doubt if Debbie Yow is looking for another football coach, yet. Is UNC? That is a more relevant question considering the recent events.
    I don’t care if Butch had knowledge about his players because:
    1. If he did he should be fired due to dishonesty.
    2. If he did not he should be fired due to lack of institutional control and his own incompetence.
    I think you dislike my moniker due to fear of the NCAA hitting UNC with lack of it.
    Now get with as many of your Walmart hole friends and have a group squirm.

  • Not an ABC fan said,

    Institutional Control,
    I enjoy a good debate among rivals, especially with the closeness of the Big Four in this area. However, why do have to resort to name calling and using the word Hole instead of Heel? It really dilutes many of the good points you have made. Try taking it to a higher level.

  • Tim said,

    Institutional Control

    I`m still in elementary school remember. 3rd grade to be exact.

    I wasn`t in greenville to witness the beat down, but based on this board and others I have talked with, they indicated how you guys were ready to run Tom out of town.

    Just 2 weeks prior to this,you would have thought your team was going to contend for a Nat. Tiltle.

    As far as the apples and oranges comment, they both pal in comparison I`m not sure how widespread this Ephedrine use is, it is however completely illegal and the bottom line, this is cheating. These guys are gaining an advantage from a ncaa banned substance. I wouldn`t condone my son to be involved obviously with either situation but I can tell you that using Steroids/ smoking weed assalting 65 year old bus driver from roid rage is far more worst in my eyes or any other reasonable responsible parents eyes, than getting help on a paper that only a sentence or 2 was changed.

    And this all happen @College Inn which is owned by the wolfpack club!

    Those kids involved had no repercussions from the school or the coaching staff. All the kids involved with this so called scandal in CH have either been suspended for the year or withheld from many games.

    I`m not sure if we are the apples or the oranges but I will allow you to make that determination since you have so much knowledge of both programs.

  • Institutional Control said,

    Nothing has happened yet to Boston and that other kid involved in the sexual assault a few days ago either.
    I never said NC State was going to contend for any title this season.
    Yesterday I said that I had no excuses for the ECU loss.
    I credited ECU for outplaying the Pack.
    I did not then or have ever indicated the need for NC State to change football coaches.
    As for the illegal drug use 2 things are true:
    1. The legal system in this state will be more likely to nail a drug user from a collegiate athletic team not named UNC than from one that is named UNC.
    2. All NCAA athletes are subject to random drug testing. How do I know this? My daughter was an athlete at a Division 1 UNC System school (not named the Tarheels )and she and her teammates took at least 2 drug tests during her 4 years. She was in a nonrevenue sport so I would assume that football and basketball players would be tested more often.

  • Institutional Control said,

    This for Not an ABC fan
    You sound like an actual UNC grad.
    I have several relatives and a few friends that are UNC grads.
    From now on (unless some Walmarter really irritates me) I will say heel instead of hole. I agree with you that debate is healthy. If you do not already you should read He gives a UNC viewpoint on what he calls the current state of unpleasantness(this football situation).He loves his school and he loves college sports but he is ready for Butch to move on and someone else to rebuild UNC football to a competitive level with real STUDENT/ATHLETES.

  • Not an ABC fan said,

    Not to nitpick, but Mel Lewis, aka BobLee, is not a Carolina grad. He makes money everytime someone hits his website.
    He adopted Carolina when he moved here and got to know some former UNC Athletic Dept staff when he complained about the football atmosphere in Chapel Hill. During that time, he came to know John Bunting. He still thinks UNC should not have fired Bunting.
    I have spent a lot of time around Mel Lewis. Even he would tell you that he writes for effect.
    No one at UNC is happy about all of this, and definitely not happy about the negative publicity. However, the school is handling this in the proper manner. To suggest otherwise is simply incorrect. They absolutely could have some kind of sanctions. All I have tried to say is that it won’t be anything close to what you and others think.
    I’m done here.

  • Tim said,

    Institutional Control

    Best of my recollections I never said you said that you were going to compete for a Nat. Title. Get your facts straight, something that you have a hard time doing. Apparently, the 8000+ pack fans @ecu had that impression of this team until after the game over then the fire Tom started echoing through your fan base.

    You may or may not have been 1 of that group but this is always your mo. ALWAYS.

    Why do you ALWAYS try to divert other transgressions to unc everytime someone mentions your schools apparently misfortunes” I find that hard to actual believethat you went to a college period” as adamant as you are about Carolina.

    Your user name says it all, you can talk the talk but you can`t walk the walk. Being on the defensive brings out your true colors.

    Take your ball and go home because you act like a kid. You constantly throwing a temper tantrum and someones else expense.Who cares about your opinion in regards to any other program, we all obviously know in the grand scheme of things, that your opinions carry no merit. Run alongs its nap time!

  • El Gordo Gringo said,

    Talking….but not walking the walk, huh? It’s the “Carolina Way!”

  • Behind Door #1 said,

    Institutional out of control

    I`m beginning to wondwer what dog you do have in this fight. Dude, you have a weird agenda.

    You have been exposed by alot of misleading information that I think only you believe.

    I have read through these posts and I am beginning to wonder why you continue to care. Your supposed facts have been proven to be very inaccurate.

    Now I am wondering if (not a abc fan) and Tim are not the same person. But occording to your jaded philosophy, one went to school their and is a grad & one got his degree at walmart. You are too funny.

    Iwill say that being a forum observer without much of a dog in the fight your deciphering abilities are very weak. You appear to be fighting the same person with tons of contradiction amongst your many threads. I think you have been exposed on
    this forum and

  • Institutional Control said,

    I do not care one way or the other what you think of me personally.
    This is about facts not personalities.
    The following is KNOWN about the football situation in Chapel Hill:
    1. Coach Blake is an acting agent or runner is the recruiting coordinator and associate head coach. he is taking kickbacks from an agent. (Southern Cal got nailed due to one coach “looking the other way” whereas UNC had an agent/runner on staff).
    This is uncharted territory for the NCAA and probably one reason why the conclusion to this will take a while.
    2. Austin confirmed as a runner & paying for trips for players from other schools to meet agents.
    3.Multiple UNC players taking gifts and/or trips on agents expense.
    4.Multiple players already disciplined by by the NCAA.
    5.Ongoing multiple player academic scandal.
    6.Admission from UNC that multiple players had/have to go before the honor court.
    7.One tutor ” got too friendly ” with players and was “let go” by the university. This same tutor was hired personally by the head football coach after she was terminated by UNC.
    8.The head football coach claims he did not know she was fired by the university and all of this was exposed.
    9.The UNC Compliance Department did not investigate after the tutor was fired. ( A big-time RED FLAG that was not checked out).
    10.UNC did not either find or report any of the current issues. they were uncovered by the NCAA.
    11. An arrested felon coke-dealer and NCAA declared agent (Chris Hawkins) had unrestricted access to the football facilities and the team.
    12. School policy that coaches were to monitor the social networks of players ignored.

    I could have added much biased heresay to all of this that ABC fans believe already some of which may or may not be accurate. This information is enough to get any school up to and including UNC tagged with the LoIC label from the NCAA.

    Also Kirk Herbstriet followers: He was surprised at what USC received. His opinion does not necessarily bode well for UNC.

    No collegiate athletic program is perfect.The problem I have with UNC is they give one the illusion that they are and now this breaks and they are exposed with more dirt than about 2/3 of the ACC combined.

  • Tim said,

    Ding, Ding, Ding, we have have a winner.

    Congratulations your are the next contestant on truth or fiction.

    We know already. Unc will get sanctions equivalent to or harsher than Usc`s.

    Please get the last post, so we can move onto another chapter. Your beginning to embarrass the rest of posters with your tired logic and your redudantness.

    Learn how to copy and paste, it will save you some time and effort in your quest of writing this book about “The Demise of Carolina Athletics”

    Your table of contents are set. You have your thesis sentence your ready to publish this bad boy.

    This book will be available at news stands soon!

  • Tim said,

    Hey, by the way , how would you like your crow served?

  • Institutional Control said,

    I am glad to see that you are almost in the acceptance stage.
    I thought that you would continue to reside in the denial stage.
    I have a suggestion for something to do later on when you are frustrated in a few years with UNC not winning many football games due to sanctions.
    In 2013 Charlotte will begin playing football. Also High Point University is considering beginning a football program (start date unknown). These are two up and coming universities one public and one private. I am not a gambler but I would bet that neither would cheat at football.

  • App grad and Fan said,

    I hope I can inject some degree of neutrality and civility between the UNC fans vs the ABC fans. I grew up a UNC fan but I ended up attending and graduating from Appalachian. I see most of the banter here is with a NC State fan (I. Control) and some UNC fans. If all of you will put aside the pettiness and stick to the facts this will all play out. UNC WILL NOT GET A DEATH PENALTY and have to shut down football for 2 years like SMU 20+ years ago. I feel cetain the ABCers want this but it will not happen.
    UNC fans on the other hand need to understand that this IS a big deal. Light sanctions will not take place either. Both fan bases should expect something in between. I am just thankful that we have Jerry Moore who would not allow any of this kind o stuff to happen at ASU. I wish UNC would play us. The year we played at LSU Coach Moore tried to schedule UNC and was rejected by Coach Davis. That same year Carolina played McNeese State another Louisiana school. We could have taken a bus to play in Chapel Hill and McNeese could have taken one to Baton Rouge. This was right when the economy went south. Scandal or not why won’t UNC play us? NC State beat us in 2006 and we ended up with a 14-1 record and our second National Championship.

  • Tim said,

    Boy this post has the scent of institutional out of control all over it. I will not touch this with a 10 foot pole. Good try though!

  • App grad and Fan said,

    So Tim has me confused with another poster.
    From what I have read earlier it is not his first time in that state(confusion).
    Good luck Tim. I hope your meds work for you.